Ep. 40: Dental Team Hiring Tips
Hiring is still a major problem for many dentists right now, which we’ve discussed in prior episodes. This week, we’re focusing on solutions. Jeff is joined by special guest Ashley Fuegel to discuss tips for finding, interviewing, and hiring candidates in today’s environment. As the VP of Administration, Ashley has hired hundreds of employees personally and also consulted countless clients, so she has seen it all when it comes to hiring.
Topics:
:40 – Finding qualified candidates
7:43 – What to look for in the interview process
19:34 – How things have changed since 2019
Links:
Learn more about MGE - https://www.mgeonline.com
Team training video courses - https://ddssuccess.com
The MGE Power Program - https://www.mgeonline.com/power-program
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Questions From This Episode
What's the single biggest hiring mistake Ashley sees, and how should practices fix it?
Treating hiring like a single ad posted once and hoping for enough resumes, the same mistake as running one new patient ad and expecting it to fill the whole practice. The fix is approaching hiring the same way you'd approach marketing, running ads, posting on social media, putting a sign at the front desk, and telling employees, friends, and family you're hiring, so the pool of prospects is genuinely wide.
Why does calling back resumes quickly matter so much in the current labor market?
A genuinely good candidate isn't going to sit around waiting, they're actively looking and will take the first solid offer that comes along, so a practice that only reviews resumes once a week is losing strong prospects to faster moving employers. If you know you're going on vacation or won't have time to respond quickly, it's better to hold off running paid ads that week entirely than to let good resumes sit unanswered.
Why does Ashley recommend trusting your gut during an interview, even if a candidate checks every box on paper?
A great resume, professional appearance, and punctuality don't guarantee you'll actually get along with someone, and office harmony matters enough that a personality mismatch is worth taking seriously. Hiring out of desperation because a seat is empty, rather than genuinely getting along with the candidate, tends to create bigger problems than temporarily using a temp agency or a friend to cover the gap.
What's the actual process Ashley follows once she's decided a candidate is genuinely worth hiring?
She spends real time, sometimes up to an hour and a half, walking through the position in detail: pay, benefits, hours, specific performance expectations tied to real statistics, and how a 60 to 90 day checklist ties to a future raise, all laid out clearly before anyone commits. That gets followed by reference checks calling the actual employer rather than a personal cell number, a signed background check authorization, and finally a written offer letter summarizing everything discussed.
Why does Ashley recommend letting a new hire go quickly if serious red flags show up in the first few days?
Waiting two or three months to let someone go after red flags appeared almost immediately actually does the employee a disservice too, since they've likely stopped job searching, and possibly made other commitments, based on believing the position was secure. Ending it early, especially for genuine red flags rather than small, trainable mistakes, is usually the kinder outcome for both sides and lets that person go find a role that's actually a good fit.
Episode Transcript
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Jeff: We've spent the better part of at least three episodes on this podcast talking about personnel issues, especially finding and hiring new people in our current environment. Why? Because it's a genuinely big issue right now. Without rehashing all of it, here's what you're looking at as an employer: one of the tighter labor markets in the last 20 to 30 years. It really started tightening in 2021, and it's only gotten tighter through 2022.
Jeff: So for this week's episode, I wanted to address this head on, and I have a special guest, MGE's Vice President of Administration, Ashley Fuegel, to talk through this and give you some immediate tips for finding and hiring productive staff. A little about Ashley first, she started with the company back in 2006 as our HR director, moved up to run our entire establishment division, and is now our Vice President of Administration. Over her career she's interviewed thousands of applicants and hired hundreds of people, and when a client is having genuinely tough personnel issues, Ashley is usually the one who steps in to help sort it out. Ashley, are you all set over there?
Ashley: Yep, all set.
Jeff: Great, let's jump right in. We teach clients a lot about hiring and training through the MGE Power Program, there's a lot to know. But say someone listening right now is having real trouble finding and hiring people, what are some immediate things you'd have them do?
Ashley: There are four things I'd point to right away. The biggest thing I see, almost universally when I talk to clients, is that they aren't approaching hiring from a marketing perspective. They put up one ad and think, okay, hopefully I get enough resumes now. That's the equivalent of running one new patient ad and expecting it to fill your entire practice.
Jeff: That's a good analogy.
Ashley: So you have to approach it like marketing. Run ads, post on social media, put a sign at the front desk, tell your employees, your friends, your family that you're hiring. The more you communicate that you're looking for someone, or multiple people, the more likely you are to find somebody quickly, someone who actually fits what you need and can be genuinely productive.
Jeff: So it's about widening the actual pool of potential candidates.
Ashley: Exactly. I see people who are almost afraid to let anyone know they're hiring, worried patients might find out or something. And I think, what's actually embarrassing about that? A sign at the front desk is genuinely easy, and I've had plenty of clients pick up real prospects that way.
Jeff: What would that sign actually say?
Ashley: Something simple, we're hiring, your dental team is looking for someone to join us, you can either list the specific position or just say, ask us what we're looking for. And I'd leave that sign up permanently, even if your team is fully staffed right now, you never know when you'll need to expand, or when someone's life changes and they leave.
Jeff: Do you list a specific contact person on the sign?
Ashley: Yes, if you have an office manager, list their name directly, or you could put the doctor's name. You want people to know exactly who to ask for.
Ashley: The second thing: once resumes actually come in, whether through your ads or people calling directly, you need to look at them and call back fast. I see people decide they'll handle resumes every Friday afternoon, and by Monday, that's already too much time gone. If someone's a genuinely good employee or prospect, they're going to find a job fast. Remember, they might be sitting at home without one right now, actively looking, and the people who are actively looking are exactly the people you want to hire. So you have to move quickly. When a resume comes in, call that day, make time in the evening if you have to. If you know you're going on vacation next week, don't put your ads up that week. You can still have the sign at the front desk, but don't pay for an Indeed ad or a Craigslist ad that week if you won't have time to actually respond to resumes.
Jeff: Good tip.
Ashley: Third thing: don't hire out of desperation. Say you have no one at the front desk, you need someone hired right away, and you interview a candidate who really doesn't check most of your boxes, but you hire them anyway because they're better than nobody. You're often genuinely better off using a temp agency, a friend, or a family member to cover the front desk temporarily, sometimes even better off with nobody there, than hiring the wrong person.
Ashley: There's a second piece to this too. When you're actually interviewing someone, I could give you a long list of specific things to look for, but honestly, trust your gut. If you're talking to someone and thinking, I don't think I'm going to get along with this person, even though they have a great resume, showed up on time, dressed professionally, everything checks out on paper, you're probably not going to get along with them. Don't hire them anyway. Office harmony genuinely matters, you have to actually get along with the people you work with, and that mismatch often comes right out of that same desperation, they seem qualified enough, so you hire them anyway.
Ashley: The last thing: don't be afraid to hire someone you'll need to train. There are so many genuinely good prospects out in other fields, waitresses, bank employees, retail workers, who have zero dental experience but can absolutely be taught. Obviously that doesn't apply to a hygienist or an associate doctor, those require actual licensure. But a dental assistant, front desk, office manager, treatment coordinator, we've seen clients successfully hire and train people into every one of those roles.
Ashley: I'd genuinely recommend carrying business cards. I've done this myself many times, if I have a great server at a restaurant, I'll ask if they're looking for work outside of serving, or if this is meant to be their long-term career, and hand them a card. If they're sharp and on the ball, and I know I can train the rest, that's a real prospect. One of our own top trainers came from the food industry originally, she started as my receptionist, worked her way up, got herself trained, and now trains a lot of our own clients.
Jeff: That's true, and she runs a genuinely tight ship too.
Ashley: She really does.
Jeff: So those are the four things to do right away: approach hiring like marketing, call back resumes fast, don't hire out of desperation, and be willing to train. Let's talk about the actual interview itself. What are the main things you're looking for once someone's actually in front of you?
Ashley: There's a lot I look for, but the main things: first, I check the resume to make sure the person isn't what I'd call a job hopper, someone who's had multiple jobs in short succession, three to six months, even a full year is fairly fast to be changing jobs repeatedly.
Jeff: I remember you showing me a resume once where someone listed a job they'd held for two weeks.
Ashley: They really could have just left that one off entirely, nobody would have known. That's honesty on the side of way too much honesty. But yes, I look for that pattern, and I generally won't call back a resume showing significant job hopping, since it's likely to continue. Then the basics: do they show up on time for the interview, whether it's in person or over Zoom, since we do a lot of those now, and do they show up presentable, do they look like they genuinely care about making a good impression and getting the job?
Jeff: Those are the simple, immediate ones. I know there's obviously a lot more depth to this that we cover in our actual training, but let's stick with what pops up during the interview itself that makes you think immediately, this isn't going to work.
Ashley: Job hopping is the first one, and sometimes it doesn't show up clearly on the resume itself, it comes out once I start actually discussing their career with them in the interview. That's a big one. This is also exactly why I have every candidate fill out a full application on top of their resume, it lets me capture more depth on what I actually want to know.
Ashley: The other big one, especially post-pandemic, is when the candidate starts interviewing me. What are the hours, how many days off do I get, what's the pay, what are the benefits, what exactly are you going to expect of me, but coming from an angle of, I feel like I'm the one being interviewed here.
Jeff: To be clear for anyone listening, those aren't inherently bad questions to ask.
Ashley: Not at all, I'd expect a candidate to ask questions like that. But if that becomes the predominant tone of the conversation, especially early on, that's the wrong flow. I actually try to answer most of those questions before the candidate even has to ask, once I get into explaining the position. I interview them first, have them walk me through their career, their resume, what they can do, what they've actually done, and then I describe the position myself, working through my own checklist that naturally answers most of those questions. But if I'm getting a clear what can you do for me attitude from the start, that's usually not a great sign.
Jeff: So walk me through that part, once you've decided you actually want to hire someone, how in depth do you actually get explaining the job to them?
Ashley: Very in depth, but only once I've already decided this is someone I genuinely want to hire. If it's clearly not a fit, the whole interview might take ten minutes. If I really think it's the right person, I'll spend a full hour, sometimes more, I spent an hour and a half with someone just yesterday. Because I want to make absolutely sure they understand what we're going to expect of them.
Ashley: You should be rating and judging employees based on what they actually produce for you, not just that they show up every day and go through the motions without producing anything real. If I have a treatment coordinator whose job is collecting money from patients for their treatment plans, and I expect them to collect $30,000 a day, they should genuinely be collecting $30,000 a day. So I make absolutely sure they understand the real expectations, tied to actual statistics.
Jeff: Let's dig into that specifically, since I know this is an area a lot of practices genuinely miss. So you're covering pay?
Ashley: Yes.
Jeff: Benefits?
Ashley: Yes.
Jeff: Hours?
Ashley: Yes.
Jeff: And you also get into when they can expect to be considered for a raise, don't you?
Ashley: I do. The way we set it up here, a position pays a certain amount, and we generally start people a bit lower than that ceiling. Within the first 60 to 90 days, depending on the role, they have a specific checklist, if you hit these targets, learn these things, and can do them without needing to be closely overseen, we move you up to what you were asking for, or to the full rate the position pays.
Jeff: And you've even structured it so someone starting at a given rate knows that after 60 days, if they've met specific criteria, they can expect to ask for a raise to a specific higher number.
Ashley: Exactly, an additional dollar or two an hour, whatever applies to that specific role. So by the time the interview is over, everything's genuinely laid out. They know exactly what I'm looking for, and I've found this genuinely helps on my end too, because if they hear something during that conversation they know they won't like, they might tell me directly, or they simply won't accept the offer. Either way, we're not three days into the job before they discover an expectation they don't actually want to meet, and that's when it gets genuinely costly, since you're right back to searching for the next person.
Jeff: And they know upfront too.
Ashley: Right, and I don't love hiring people who don't genuinely want to be part of the team, so I want them to know exactly what the team is about and what's expected of them, so they can decide for themselves whether they actually want to be part of it.
Jeff: So just to make sure I'm following, you spend real time, sometimes an hour or more, once you've decided someone's worth hiring, walking through the full position in depth.
Ashley: Right, and part of that time is also me learning more about them. Some candidates walk in with rehearsed answers to standard interview questions, they answer the same way every time. But if you actually get into real conversation with someone, more like you're having coffee together, you get a genuine feel for what they expect of themselves in a job and what their actual long-term goals are. In some cases that reveals someone who genuinely only wants to work somewhere for six months before moving on, which is worth knowing upfront.
Ashley: You can sometimes catch the rehearsed answer too. I never ask where do you see yourself in five years, because everyone expects that question and has a canned response ready, something like, growing myself within your practice. But if you're in real conversation and it comes out that they're also in school to become a photographer, for instance, that's worth knowing. That's not necessarily disqualifying, I've hired plenty of people who were in school at the time, but I go in with clear eyes about it. I know I've essentially got this person for two years, and I'll lay that out for them too, I'm not going to move you up significantly in the organization, you can expect to top out around this amount, but if you do a good job, you've got a genuinely good job here while you finish school.
Jeff: And you've had good people come out of exactly that arrangement.
Ashley: Absolutely, and sometimes their plans change entirely once they genuinely love where they're working, that's exactly what happened with the trainer I mentioned earlier, she was in school when I hired her, and now she's built her whole career here.
Jeff: That's great. So once you've gone through that first ten minutes or so and decided this is genuinely worth pursuing further, you walk through the full position, and then you mentioned giving them an offer letter.
Ashley: Right, though not usually in that same interview, since I still need to check references and run a background check first. Once all of that's done and I've decided yes, I'm hiring this person, we send an offer letter, a summarized version of everything we discussed, the position, the pay, what we expect of them as an employee, training, and how they can advance and earn more over time. It's genuinely detailed, and it's in writing.
Jeff: We have clients doing this too, I believe we give them a sample they can run past their own HR company or attorney.
Ashley: Right, to make sure it's workable for their specific location and situation. But yes, the more you put in writing with an employee, the less room there is for confusion later.
Jeff: And you do this even with hourly employees?
Ashley: Any employee. And once they're actually in that 60 to 90 day period, what they need to accomplish is in writing too, signed off by both them and whoever's training them. That way there's no mystery at the end of that period. If it isn't working out, there's no need to get upset about it, you had this checklist, we haven't hit these goals, it seems like this isn't the right fit. That happens sometimes.
Jeff: That's a genuinely good approach.
Ashley: It really is, and honestly, in a way it's kinder too. I've heard both you and Sabri say this before, if you have someone who's been with you three months and it clearly isn't working, but you keep them on anyway because you can't find a replacement, that's actually worse for them too. They could be out finding a position that's genuinely right for them instead. Even shorter term than that, we tell clients to watch for major red flags in the first 24 hours to three days, showing up late, or just that gut feeling that this isn't going to work out. Don't hope it gets better, don't hope the problem goes away, I'm talking about genuine red flags here, not small things that are simply part of normal training.
Ashley: If three days pass and then two months go by before you finally let someone go, that person has likely already stopped actively job searching, maybe they signed a lease based on believing they had steady income. Whereas if you end it after three days, their resume is still fresh and active, and they can go find something that's actually right for them.
Jeff: It feels kind to try to make it work, but really it's kinder to end it quickly.
Ashley: Exactly, you think you're being kind by holding on and hoping it improves, but you're usually better off being direct, and honestly, they probably sense it isn't working out too.
Jeff: That makes sense. A couple more questions. From a personnel perspective, since you're directly involved in hiring across a lot of practices, what are the major differences you're seeing now compared to 2019, beyond just having to pay more?
Ashley: It's considerably more competitive, which is probably obvious to most people at this point, you see hiring signs everywhere now. So going back to those first two points, you have to post more than just one or two ads, and in real volume, and you have to move fast once you find a genuinely good prospect, both in the interview process and in actually extending the offer. You still want to check references, maybe run a background check, all of which takes real time, and during that time, if the candidate is sharp, they're still out there looking. So whatever you can do to compress that timeline matters enormously in this market. And you have to be genuinely willing to train. If you're still stuck thinking you need someone who already knows dental office work specifically, you're going to have a much harder time finding anyone at all.
Jeff: I want to go back to a couple of things you mentioned earlier. You said you check references on every applicant?
Ashley: Every one, and we always call the actual business, not a personal cell number. People will often list personal references on a resume, but on our own application, for each position someone's held, we ask who their supervisor was and for a direct phone number, and here in Florida we're required to ask permission before calling that person, every state has its own specific rules on this, so worth checking your own state's requirements.
Ashley: So I'll typically end up with about six references total, three personal ones and three from their last three jobs. Say a candidate lists a previous employer and gives me a phone number for their supervisor, if I call it and it turns out to be a personal cell phone rather than the business line, I'll look the company up independently and call them directly instead.
Jeff: Because in theory someone could game the system, tell a friend, hey, if someone calls asking about me, say I did a great job.
Ashley: Exactly, which is why I always verify by calling the actual company.
Jeff: And then background checks specifically, who do we currently use for those?
Ashley: ADP now, we used a company called S2Verify before that.
Jeff: And the candidate has to sign something authorizing that, correct?
Ashley: Right, and I want to flag something important on both of these, references and background checks specifically, since there are real legal considerations with each. To be clear, we're not employment attorneys, and this isn't legal advice, you should genuinely talk to your own HR company or employment attorney about your specific situation and state.
Ashley: On references specifically, you have to be careful you're not asking leading questions designed to draw out negative information about a candidate, that can genuinely create legal exposure if you're not careful. On background checks, the candidate has to sign an authorization, and if something concerning does turn up, there are specific requirements around providing that candidate copies of the report, which your background check company should help facilitate, though the responsibility to actually provide it falls on you.
Ashley: I bring this up because I was running a seminar years ago and a newer client mentioned wanting to use one of those consumer background check apps, the kind you'd use to check who you're dating, and that's genuinely not legal for employment screening purposes.
Jeff: That's a memorable one.
Ashley: It really was. And I see a lot of people these days looking up a candidate's social media accounts too, there are legal considerations around that as well, worth checking with your own HR or legal contact before making that a standard part of your process.
Jeff: Now, background checks specifically, roughly what do those cost?
Ashley: Around $30 to $40.
Jeff: So when would you actually run one? Obviously not before someone's even come in, since they have to sign authorization first, and not on someone you only spent ten minutes with and have no intention of hiring.
Ashley: Right, it's specifically for someone I've already decided I genuinely want to hire, usually after I've also checked references. I could call a reference and hear the person was genuinely terrible, in which case I'm not moving forward with a background check at all. And this is exactly why I'm glad we're emphasizing getting your HR and legal situation squared away, the rules genuinely vary. California is different from Florida, for instance, in California you can't even run a background check until after you've formally offered the person the job.
Jeff: And again, that's not legal advice specifically for California, just something worth confirming with your own counsel.
Ashley: Exactly, check with your own HR company or attorney.
Jeff: So you mentioned having an HR company or an attorney, what exactly do you mean by an HR company specifically?
Ashley: There are a number of HR companies out there now that typically employ a group of attorneys on staff, and they tend to be more affordable than working with a standalone employment attorney directly. They'll provide you with employee handbooks, basic guidance specific to your state, and you can call them directly whenever a question or issue comes up, like whether you're even allowed to run a background check at a given stage. I'd genuinely recommend every practice have at least an HR company they work with, since there are things you simply wouldn't think to ask about otherwise, like California's rule on background check timing, or restrictions on what you're even allowed to ask during the interview itself. Some states are genuinely tricky to navigate, and it's worth having real guidance rather than guessing.
Jeff: Ashley, thank you so much for joining us this week.
Ashley: Of course, this was great.
Jeff: I hope everyone listening picked up a few things they can genuinely apply in their own practice right away. As Ashley mentioned, if you're looking to get trained as an executive yourself, you can learn more about the MGE Power Program on the episode webpage. And if you're specifically looking for staff training, we have a platform called DDS Success with positional training for every role in a dental practice, that link is on the episode webpage too, at ddssuccess.com.
Jeff: If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, follow, or subscribe on whichever platform you're listening on. We genuinely appreciate you taking the time to listen today, and we'll see you at the next episode.